Wise Not Withered

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-33ith-14ad77c

Thanks for joining us on the podcast! So… Natalie Griffith Robichaux.

Yes.

Cool. Got it. Yay. So what is your age?

I am 49. Gonna be 50 in January!

Amazing. When’s your birthday?

January 18th!

Okay cool! That’s a little less than a month after mine! Hehe.

Ah, all right!

Are you a Capricorn?

I am a Capricorn. I’m very much a Capricorn.

Yeah? Are you into astrology?

Totally! I have been my whole life. It just makes sense to me. It always has.

I’m a Capricorn too! What about the Capricorn sign do you resonate with? Like what comes to mind when you think, “I’m a Capricorn!”

I’m fiercely loyal. Can be very… Systems-oriented. Like I kinda get into the organizational, ambition behind organization, making systems work… I’m super passionate, I’m grounded. I can be a little… Jealous… At times? Stubborn! What else… I mean those are the things that come off the top of my head. I have three, including myself, Capricorns in my house. My daughter’s a Capricorn, and my husband’s a Capricorn. And then my son is a Virgo. So, very different. He’s living with three Capricorns in the same building, so it gets interesting!

I’m just picturing all the rams butting heads. Is it like that? (Laughs)

Sure! (Laughs) There’s some of that. But I think we’re all very passionate in our own ways. Yeah.

Cool! Yeah. So you mentioned you’re a mother. What other roles do you currently carry? Like, how do you refer to yourself, and what do others refer to you as?

I’m an artist, a performing artist, a teacher, a coach, a guide… I’ve been shifting the sort of roles and names as I’ve gotten older. I’ve become more comfortable with taking up roles that I would’ve been more timid about taking up before, when I was younger. I like to refer to myself as a witch, in the way that… I read this definition of a witch that an artist made, I don’t remember who said this. Maybe we could find it. But it was in the New York Times, this artist that said, “A witch is a woman with unconstrained relationship to her power.”

Ooooooh.

And so I was like, “I wanna be a witch! So I’m gonna start saying, ‘I’m a witch.’ I’m gonna invite that in.” So I guess “witch” would be a role that I would like to embody, that I try to embody. Definitely mother, friend, partner, sister, daughter—those are all very important to me.

And you mentioned roles that you are becoming more comfortable with now as you’re becoming older. Is that specifically the witch one, or are there others?

The witch one, and some friends of mine… A particular friend of mine, who I consider a spiritual guide in my life, has been inviting me to entertain the idea of “shaman” or “shepherd” or… I’ve been a mentor already, and am a mentor to several young artists, young women. Did that quite a bit and enjoyed that part of my academic career—which is now over. I moved out of academia. So I guess witch, mentor, shaman, guide, shepherd.

Okay. And yeah, you mentioned you’re an artist. What all does that entail for you? What kind of art?

It entails a lot, Juliana! I enjoy making things. I called myself a maker for a long time, cause I really enjoy making things. I love sewing. Years ago I had a handmade handbag line, when I lived in New York City, called Brooklyn Cowgirl, that I did for several years. I like making patterns for things, like sewing patterns. I paint! I also dabbled in a little bit of sculpture. And I’m a performing artist! I’ve been an actor and a dancer basically my whole life. That would be where my education is, in acting, dancing, movement, performing, and directing. Intimacy choreography for the stage, and all sorts of things.

Intimacy choreography?

Yeah. Have you heard about this?

Mm-mm.

You know, it’s been a few years now that that’s come into play. It’s essentially somebody there to help you choreograph intimate moments, or sexual moments, or moments of violence that are of an intimate nature—for the stage.

Oh wow.

So we bring in all kinds of tools to explain and set up consent culture in the rehearsal room, and on the stage, with everybody involved in the production. And we choreograph like it’s a dance—the actual movements of an intimate scene. So it’s not just like, “Oh uh, roll around on the bed and kiss each other twice, and let’s see what happens!” You know, you choreograph it like it’s a dance movement, so that you can count on what’s gonna happen—all the people involved can count on what’s gonna happen, and you can repeat it. And then you are somebody who maintains, helps the actors and stage management maintain that choreography throughout the run.

And sometimes the artists are scared that it’s gonna limit things and take the spontaneity, in-the-moment creativity out of a moment that’s about the human condition and about connecting in an intimate way. Making an imagined circumstance real. But I’ve found that the choreography and the consent culture guidelines actually give some guard rails, so that then you can play jazz when you’re up there—it really just opens things up in a huge way.

Interesting! Yeah, I’ve never heard about that.

That study that I did, and that practice of choreographing several things for the stage, and working with theater groups and things like that—really informs the coaching and therapeutic work that I do. It feels like all of these different elements come in together to… Now as I turn the corner to turning 50, it feels like all of these different areas of study and experience are joining together finally, in a way that I haven’t felt before.

I’ve always struggled with doing too many things. Maybe that’s something you can relate to—I know you’re multi-faceted.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that in the past has felt like a struggle, and like I’m not doing anything completely… How can I really commit to something. This story, that I need to commit to one thing. Take that one thing all the way—that sort of thing. But now, it really feels like those seemingly disparate things have been really a gift, many gifts, that are now weaving together.

Wow! Amazing. I really resonate with what you said, so many different things. That’s really cool! Wow. Oh my gosh, there’s so many different directions we could go in. How about… Can you talk about your performing arts, how that has shifted? Maybe like how did you first get into it? I mean, I’m sure you always dancing as a kid. But like, how did that evolve? You’re a teacher, now you do coaching. Can you talk about it from like a dancing lens, and how that’s shifted, changed, and evolved in your lifetime?

Yes, yes! Well, dancing is where I started. And the way that I feel it is that it was always through my body, I was really drawn to and excited by and thrilled by expressing myself through my whole body. And that was something that came really easily to me, and it felt really powerful and impactful. It felt like a way that I could be impactful on an audience, or you know, using my expression through my body. And I maybe wasn’t the most technically disciplined, or you know, my technical abilities were not always really high, just because of my sheer body shape. I don’t know what you know about ballet or any sort of dance, but they can be very rigid, and very prescribed. You know, like a certain body type is a dancer, and there were certain things that my body just wouldn’t do. Like there was a limit, even at a very young age, just because of anatomy.

But I was always, always, always drawn to expressing myself with my body, and that led me to acting. I found that when I was dancing as a preteen and a teenager, I wanted to speak on stage. I wanted to see what other ways I could do that, those sorts of things. I was also always really fascinated with the human condition, psychology… Feelings! Why we have them! What happens in relationships? All of those things—it’s been an area of interest for me for sure. So I went into acting with a BFA undergrad program. And then went directly from there into a graduate acting program, at UCSD in San Diego. That was in the late 90’s—the 1900’s, as my kids say. (Laughs) They’re like “Mom, that movie is from the 1900’s, and I’m like ‘Yes, so am I. So am I. I am also from the 1900’s.’” That was in the late 90’s.

In a graduate acting program, your classes are acting, obviously, but there’s also movement, and yoga, and body awareness, and vocal training, which is also body awareness-related, and breath-related, and singing and speech. And then how all of these things work together to produce sound! You know, all of that stuff.

So I did that training. Loved it. Loved being in that training. And again, I was always an actor, and am still an actor, who first approaches it through the body. I taught a little bit in graduate school—like you are doing, right—as part of my graduate program. And then went to New York City, started working in theater: regional theater, Broadway, Off-Broadway, that sort of thing, in New York. I didn’t do a lot of teaching while I was doing that. I was really trying to get jobs as an actor, and honing my retail sales skills, and my waiting tables skills, which I did for many years. (Laughs) Which have actually brought many, many skills that I still use today!

And then I found myself wanting… And this was always kind of in the background when I was doing my graduate studies and when I was performing in theater productions and that sort of thing. I found myself wanting some sort of outlet to give back, and I knew that my experience in getting to know my body and using my imagination through movement was such a therapeutic experience for me, that I wanted to share that with other people. And I couldn’t quite figure out how to do that.

And while I was in New York… I don’t even remember where I first heard the term “drama therapy”, but when I heard it, I was like “Oh, what? What??” And it was, you know, theater processes used for therapeutic purposes, right. And I was like, “Oh my god, that would be so great!” Immediately thrilled about it! And at that time, there were only two programs in the country. One at NYU, and one at University of San Francisco. And I applied to the one at NYU—it was another masters program. I was a, you know, struggling, starving actor who was working periodically but not making a lot of money, just making ends meet, and had no health care for a little while. Then would have health care through the actor’s union, then I would not have it. Thank god for Planned Parenthood in Manhattan in the early 2000’s. They saved my life on several occasions, for just basic female health care. I digress—it is part of the story.

I interviewed for the program at NYU, and part of the interview process was they pulled out fifty applicants from their scores of applicants for their drama therapy program, and they all came to NYU for a weekend. And we went through all of these drama therapy exercises as a group, as a sort of like interview process where they would decide who would be M.A. candidates, who would become part of the program. So I got a real taste of what it was. And I was so thrilled by it, Juliana. I just took to it immediately. It made sense in my body. I was doing things with these other people who were interested in it as well, and it was working therapeutically for us in that weekend, even in that short period of time. I was just so excited by it. I got accepted to the program, and then found out the cost of the program. (Laughs) And was not able to do it.

And that felt like a derailment. Like oh… Okay… But knew that I was still interested in it. So I got a few books that were written at the time about it, and started reading as much as I could. At that time, I moved with my then-boyfriend, who then became my husband, who I’m still married to now. We moved from New York to Los Angeles. He’s an actor as well, and as acting teacher. And we moved to LA, and at that time in my acting work, I realized that I was 33, and… The parts that I was going up for in theater were getting less and less and less. There seemed to be an age gap in the parts that were there. It was like… 30 to 60, it was like there wasn’t a lot there.

Hm.

And, I had reached a point where… I remember being in my agent’s office in New York City. We were looking at something called the break downs, where they send out for auditions… They send out like what the characters are and actors they’re looking for. So they’ll say like… Woman, in her 20’s. The character is flamboyant, and whatever. They’ll tell the agents what kind of actors they’re looking for for the parts. And he read a break down out to me, and it was for something like Cincinnati Playhouse, which was a regional theater, a great theater that would audition in New York and would be a great job to have. I don’t remember if it was actually Cincinnati Playhouse, but it was one of those regionals.

And it said next to the part that I would be up for, it said “Stars Only”. And that was during the time when reality TV was coming up, and lots of reality stars were starting to do theater, and bring in people for audiences, and theaters were looking for people who had some star power. That was not something I had. I was 33, and I felt like I was coming into a desert zone of parts. And so when I moved to Los Angeles, I left my agency, and I was like, “I’m done. If acting is breaking up with me, I’m gonna break up with it before it gets a chance to break up with me.” (Laughs) So I’m like nah, not gonna do that anymore. Gonna do something else.

So in LA, I was really floundering, and trying to find what I was gonna do with this Masters degree in acting, and experience in theater… And I didn’t know. And I found a drama therapy institute in Los Angeles, where I could take some classes. It wasn’t a degree program, but I could take classes. So I started some classes there. My husband and I decided to start an acting company, or an acting school, in Los Angeles. He was the main teacher, and then I would supplement some things sometimes. So I started teaching a little bit there.

And then it went on from there. We moved to Austin, Texas, after we had been in Los Angeles for about four years. We opened an acting studio in Austin, Texas, had that for several years. I had two kids during that time, who are my greatest spiritual teachers. And from there, we decided to move and take up academic appointments at Penn State University. They were offering my husband a job there—he had been teaching in universities in Austin, and they offered him a job, and they offered me a job as well. So that’s how I got into academia. And when I started at Penn State, I was really interested in the imagination, and the imagination being the gateway to all progress and growth. And particularly something a teacher called Movement Imagination, which is… It’s not a visualization exercise. The best way I can describe it is that your energetic body is moving. And you use it for creative purposes.

So I was super, super interested in studying that. That led me Michael Chekhov work, which is an actor training theory and program, that is about the energetic body and expanding creative abilities through the body. And I was training to teach acting, but as the years went along and I got more attuned with Michael Chekhov and my energetic body and all of the doors in my creative abilities started to blow open because of this work… I started noticing my students were having positive therapeutic results from an acting class.

Now, you don’t ever want to make an acting class a therapy session. That would be unethical. But I was noticing that it was a by-product of the work that was really powerful, and I was really interested in that.

Do you want me to keep going?

Yeah!

That was… Very long-winded answers.

No, no, I love this! Yeah, please keep going!

So I really entrenched myself in studying Michael Chekhov work with the top teachers, and I was not far from New York and New York State, where a lot of those folks were—still are. And because I was teaching in an academic institution, they were supporting me doing a lot of training, which was really, really great. And also during that time, I got very interested in devising original theater work, and solo performance work, making my own solo performance work.

So I am studying this energetic body imagination, creative ability, explosive stuff for the theater, and I’m teaching acting through that lens, and also all of my acting teaching, and movement for the actor—teaching, and devising work, always comes through the body, like that’s my gateway, every time. Anyway, I’m practicing as I’m teaching. And I’m in research with my students around this work every semester, right? Which is awesome. Which is the way, in my mind, the university system is “supposed” to work. It’s a research institution, where the faculty and the students are actively in research together. And that’s what’s exciting about it to me.

That was a time of explosive growth, excitement in the artistic area of things. Both being a performing artist and theater maker, and being a teacher, and teaching artist. And then we were both offered jobs in UCSD, in San Diego, where I went to graduate school—2o some years later. We were both offered jobs to teach at their theater program. So we moved from Pennsylvania to there, to work and teach. And so I continued working in that area of interest.

And then… How do I explain this? It became… I became aware that the academic, at least at UCSD, was not supportive about it being research, and it started to feel really restrictive. And I was noticing at the same time that a large majority of my students were experiencing trauma, or had experienced trauma that was coming into the classroom with them—because we were working on the body, and expressing yourself, and it’s impossible to block that out, separate those things. And I wanted to be able to support my students in feeling brave and safe.

And I was really clamoring to figure out how to do that in a university situation and system… And it just got murkier and murkier, and it started to feel dangerous to me, a little bit, in the way that… I didn’t want to overstep anything as an acting teacher. I wasn’t a trained therapist, I didn’t want to overstep. And yet… So many of my students coming to me, asking me to support them in that way. I became aware that I was interested in learning how to do that, right? How do use these processes for therapy, for a therapeutic purpose.

And at that time, this is an important part of my journey, I started having chronic migraines, and chronic body pain… Joint pain… Low energy… Migraines that would take me out for days at a time. You know, things like that. It was a very high stress job too, because of the way that the department was structured. So all of these things combined led me to seek out acupuncturists to help me with the chronic pain, and whatever was going on with my adrenal system and everything else that was bringing that on. And this acupuncturist introduced me to reiki, which is an energetic healing modality.

So I decided to study reiki, so that I could heal myself. And then maybe heal my family, or something like that. I wasn’t gonna practice it as a practitioner—I didn’t think I would. But I got into it more and more. Did some training, and there’s different levels. I did the first level and thought, “Oh. Hm. Wow, this is giving me a window into a spiritual connection for me to Source energy, and the Universe.” It was working for me, and I felt like I was healing myself.

And then I found Leslie Huddart, and BWA online—Body Wisdom Academy. That work really seemed to come together with the Michael Chekov work, and all the things I had been doing before. And even imagination work… I was really excited by that! I went into that with the hope of healing myself, right. Just basically to stop the migraines—that was the main thing that was so difficult. And the deeper I got into that work, I was like, “Ooh!” I started using the work…

You know, all the time, as I’m going along, I’m still working on a solo performance piece with a friend of mine who I’m collaborating with. So I’m bringing in some of the things that I’m learning into that work, into making theater. And I’m still mentoring students, and young artists, which is my favorite part of teaching. The one-on-one with artists who are needing support and guidance, a listening ear, you know, some feedback every now and then.

So that’s happening at the same time, and the deeper I got into Leslie Huddart’s work, the more I realized like “Oh gosh, this is really…” It was kind of like Michael Chekov was for me when I found it, it was like, “Oh my god! There’s all this vocabulary!” For all this stuff that I was kind of sort of starting to do already myself that I organically came to. And then there’s all this vocabulary and these folks who know and have experienced all these things who can guide me. This is really resonating, things are changing for me in my body, and in my outer world!

So I then went into her coach training program, cause I was like yeah! That seemed like the next step for me. So I completed that over a year’s time, or nine months. And I just completed that in May.

Oh wow, okay!

So I have several individual clients that I am working with now, and I’m hoping to grow that. But I’m also… There’s been a book, Juliana, in my… Right back here in the back of my consciousness for several years that’s like a workbook of practices that combine all of these things together. This is a working title, it’s not a title that I would ever put out there, but what I’m calling it for myself and all my files, is “Remembering the Creative Body to Save the World”.

Ooooh wow!

(Laughs) Because I really feel like our inner work, doing our inner work is the way to change the world and how we have an impact on the outer world. And I so, so deeply believe and know in my heart that embodiment is the way to freedom, and connection, and joy… And all of those things that we long for. So now, I’m moving into building a coaching business, but also writing a book. I feel like some of it is gonna be exorcised from me in the form of public speaking, or teaching, or possibly performance… That’s the way I’m going to disseminate the experience to other people. So that is in the works! And I’m still constantly working on—and this has a place in all of these things that I’m mentioning—I’m still working on a solo performance piece that I have been working on for years. I’m performed it along the way in its different iterations at different places. It’s called Bicycle Face. In my body and heart and mind, it’s going to end up being in an anthology of sorts with other women and folks who identify as women.

That’s a thread that’s through all of this too, and I don’t know how all of these things are coming together, but I tell you what! At this time in my life, when I’m rounding the corner to 50—comin’ in hot—it feels like all of these things are being braided together in this sort of glowing… Golden braid.

Amazing! And is that Bicycle Phase? Or face?

Face. F-A-C-E. It’s based on—this is fascinating. It is based on a “syndrome”, “disorder” that was during the time, late 1800’s when hysteria and those sorts of things were medical disorders for women. It was also during the time the bicycle came in a really liberated women. It brought in women wearing pants, and they were able to be mobile, and go places on their own, cause they had a bike. You know, Susan B. Anthony was like, “I think the bicycle has been the one thing that has been revolutionary for women’s rights in the world.”

So this is happening with the bicycle, and this male doctor… Oh my gosh, he has such a fantastic name that I can’t remember right now. It’s gonna come to me. It’s so fantastic. It’s like, “That’s not really his name.” But it is. Anyway. He “discovered” a “syndrome” that afflicts only women! Or small children, or the elderly, elderly folks. That happens if you ride a bicycle. Essentially if you exert effort, your face will have bulging eyeballs and it could possibly unsex you, and there were other symptoms that he named in a medical paper, about Bicycle Face Syndrome.

It was basically like, “Hey ladies. Don’t ride a bike. Cause your face might stick like that.” (Laughs)

What!? (Laughs) Dang!

So this solo piece that I’ve been working on for nearly a decade now in different ways… It’s not about that per se, but it is about the pathologizing of the feminine. And it is about beauty, and beauty standards… And… My face, and… Folks telling me to smile when I pass them on the street and I don’t know them. Folks feeling that they can say to me that I should order my face in a different way. It is about the fact that we have a term “resting bitch face”. It is about how we exert force and what that’s about. Like what is force and real power about? And how I’ve experienced that in my middle-aged, white cis-gendered life. But also, I would like to invite other women and folks who identify as women who have had experiences as women in our world, to maybe bring their stories to make an anthology that is under the umbrella of “Bicycle Face”. Of how we make it into almost like emotional expression into pathology, a sickness.

Wow. Dang. That’s so powerful, I love that. Kinda reclaiming that phrase.

Yeah. So I don’t know how all of those things fit together. And I feel like I’ve just been talking at you for a very long time.

Yeah! I love it! It’s great! Wow! Fascinating. I feel like I need to just like… Let that sit for a little bit. Dang. Thank you for sharing all of that. Let’s see… There were a couple things that stuck out to me that I wanted to circle back to. I feel like I’m still also… I mean, not also—you’ve had a lot of experience, which is why I want to ask more about it. What exactly… Maybe some examples of energetic body work? What can that look like?

Well, the… So this is how I worded it in my introduction to this workbook for the creative body: the imagination is the gateway to all progress, or change, or movement. Movement imagination, or energetic body movement, or energetic body expression, or whatever we decide to call it. It’s the how-to for manifesting. What I mean by that, what that can look like… If we do an exercise in Michael Chekov that is around expanding and contracting. If we did it with our hand, where we make a fist. When we make a fist, we are contracting. Like that’s a contraction. It’s closed. And then when we expand, or open that completely, that’s an expansion. And if we look at it, and see our hand, and we’ve expanded it to its limit of its physical expansion, right? Like, that’s as wide as I can get my fingers. But I can imagine that my energetic hand—that is in the same shape as my physical hand—I can imagine that my energetic hand is continuing to expand.

Okay…

So if you start with a soft fist, and you look at your hand doing this movement, you have the impulse, the feeling to expand. So that’s what you’re inviting in—which is energetic, by the way, an impulse. Okay? So we’re having the impulse to open and expand our hand. Then we physically start to do it, so we use the physical body to really get into the current of that expansion. And when the physical hand opens and expands all the way, we imagine physically or energetically, continuing that expansion. Sustaining it. Sustaining is another word that is really useful, and that’s a part of the movement imagination. So I’m still opening this energetically.

You have felt this if ever you have walked into a room, with a lot of people, and there’s a certain person there that you want to look up and see you. And you say to yourself, “Okay, if I get over there to that counter, and they look up at me, I’m gonna go over and talk to them.” And it’s almost like you are sending your energetic body over to that person, like, “Look at me!! LOOK AT ME! Look up from your food and look at me!!” Right??

Maybe it happens if you are wearing a new outfit, and you’re feeling yourself in it, and you walk into the room, radiating, and you want this person to NO. TICE. ME. That’s an energetic body expansion out. Same thing if we are in a situation where we’re like, “Ooh. I don’t want anybody to see me right now. Please don’t notice me.” Or you’re in a class, and you’re like, “Don’t call on me, teacher, don’t call on me…”

You contract.

And you just contract! You know exactly what I’m talking about!

Right!

You don’t physically get into a ball, and hang your head, cover yourself up, contract like that. But you energetically do it. We shrink.

Hm! Wow!

So imagine using that superpower for creative purposes, for therapeutic purposes. If there are ways that you want to expand into something in your life, or you know that you want to take up more space in some sort of room, or system. You can practice doing that with your energetic body, using your physical body as kind of the revving of the engine, to kind of put the gas on. So you can do this movement of great expansion, and then feel the current of what expanding feels like, and then sustain the expanding, and just try that out!

What does that feel like? I know that I want to take up more space in my life, so I’m gonna do a practice of expanding into this star shape. My legs are spread, my arms are open wide, I’m trying to get into that current of expansion. And then I’m gonna play with it, and see if I can just kinda walk around like a normal person, not a starfish, and expand with my energetic body.

Wow… I’m so curious if any students in your classes have been kinda mystified by that. I feel like it’s hard to grasp, conceptually.

You have to DO it. You have do it, and experience it. It’s really difficult to talk about it, and theorize about it.

Yeah, cause I’m trying to wrap my brain around it, but it’s more…

Exactly, it’s more of a bodily and energetic bodily experience, that you want to practice.

That is fascinating! I can really resonate, like… Just a little aside, I feel like as an adolescent, my own adolescence, I was very contracted. And it was like, “Don’t look at me… Nobody notice me…” And people wouldn’t! People didn’t remember me. And I wanted that. And I do feel like I exude more now, and people tend to remember me more. And I do notice people turning their heads sometimes. And it’s like, “Oh!” Yeah, I feel like I haven’t had words for that. So I’m learning from this, so thank you! It’s fascinating!

So we could practice that. You could practice that in your own home, right. You could just try it on. See what it feels like to go make yourself a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, and just expand the entire time. And I could give you exercises that you could do with your physical body to rev the engine of that energetic body and energetic movement, so that you could get the hang of it. And then you practice sustaining it, and see what that feels like. And then, you notice what comes up for you when you do that.

Yeah, like any resistance, or…

Resistance. Fear. Which is trauma that’s trapped in our body. And then we work through that with embodied somatic therapies, right. Or the BWA work. We use that sort of stuff. Expanding and contracting is just one element. There are so many other roots in this idea of catching the current, sustaining it, and allowing it to open you creatively. Because that is really the intention and purpose behind it. Behind all of these practices, is just to open you creatively, to open your creative abilities.

Yeah, that’s interesting.

And because I’m operating under the hypothesis that living our lives is a creative process, I want to be a part of that you know, the workings of how we do that. How do we expand our creative abilities for our life, for our living? That’s a great deep interest to me.

Yeah! Wow… So interesting. Again, so many places we could go from here. Amazing. Yeah… I’m just picturing… It doesn’t even have to do with the size of your physical body. I’m just picturing like very opposites. My mom was a very, teeny tiny person, she was only 4’10”. But she had this huge presence. Like just such a bubbly, exuberant… I feel like everybody just loved her so much. And then I’m also imagining like former classmates that I had, who were very tall or just big people, but were just… Very… Not necessarily [huddled], but sometimes! And it would be like, “Oh I didn’t even see him there!” And it’s like wow! He was such a big person, but like very small energy. So yeah… Just very interesting looking back at different people’s presences, and how they showed up energetically. That’s just fascinating.

And too, Juliana, it’s also… You can work with it metaphorically, or image-wise, for therapeutic reasons. Like, how do I show up in my office? Or in my work relationship? Or in my intimate relationship? With my 50% line, am I taking up all of my space? Or am I contracting energetically in some way, so that other folks are just trampling over that 50% line—because I’m letting that happen! Because I’m not taking up all of my space.

So it really is… You asked if students were mystified. It is like a magic trick! (Laughs) It feels like, “Oh my gosh! We’re all magical! All of us are magical, sparkly unicorns that can do crazy things!” Because it really is impactful! I used to do this exercise in class, and it was taught to me by my voice teacher in graduate school. Ursula Myer—she’s a voice wizard, or genius, or witch, or whatever you want to call it.

So imagine in a room, all of the people in your class sitting with their backs to you, and they’re spaced out around the room. And then one student stands on the other side of the room. The whole class has their backs to the student. And this student says, “Juliana!” And they point to Juliana, and say, “Juliana, raise your right arm.” And so Juliana raises their right arm. “Put your right arm down!” They put their arm down.

And then they go to somebody else. “Joseph, raise your right arm!” as they point to them. And Joseph raises their right arm, puts it down. La la la. You go on. You do it a couple of times, where the student is pointing to them, and saying their name, and commanding them to do a thing that’s very simple. And then, the student who’s doing this takes out the name. They still point, and they say, “Raise your right arm.” Now all of these backs are to this person. So the group doesn’t know who they’re talking to, however, inevitably the person that they’re pointing to will raise their arm, or that group of people that’s in that area knows that it’s coming at them.

Hm…

That is an energetic exchange.

Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Huh. Cool. Yeah, I definitely saw that one coming! Like, ooh then they’re not gonna say the name, right! Yeah! (Laughs) That’s so cool!

Yeah, and it is like a magic trick. And it is also like… What’s the thing that Spider-Man, he says to Spider-Man…

The spidey-senses? Or…

Great…

Oh! With great power comes great responsibility?

Yes! Right? And it’s for all of us, right? We have great responsibility, because we are so powerful.

Right… Yeah… Wow… Interesting. Huh. Yeah, I guess… I was gonna say switching gears, but it’s probably going to circle back to all of this somehow. You mentioned that your children are your greatest spiritual teachers. Can you talk more about that?

Yes. How do I explain that? I want to be a parent who loves and supports and listens, and also raises folks who are citizens of the world who are compassionate, giving, and present. So if that’s my intention… (Laughs) I have to… (Laughs) Do work on myself, because inevitably, your kiddos are… Gosh. How do I explain this? My daughter triggers me in a way that nobody else does, because she is very aware of where there is an emotional response, or a soft spot… You know, it’s like… We all are searching for a point of connection with folks, and certainly with your parents. I mean, they are the first people that make it possible for you to exist, and stay alive, and all of those things, right?

So I have been repeatedly put in a triggered place, and I gotta deal with my shit, so that I don’t spew it on them! (Laughs) So it really highlights what complex I might have, or if I’m projecting something on them. It really illuminates my 50% line, and any sort of disorder that’s around the 50% line. And the way I’ve been describing the 50% line, and it’s not a perfect analogy, so bear with me, cause I’m working it. It’s a work in progress!

But if you’ve ever seen the movie Dirty Dancing, Patrick Swayze talks about his dance space. And he says, “This is my dance space.” He’s teaching Jennifer Grey’s character how to do this dance. He’s like, This is my dance space, and this is your dance space. And our hands meet here, but there’s no noodle arms, you can’t come into my dance space. We hold our dance space, and we dance. But I’m not coming over into your stuff, and you’re not coming over into my stuff. And I’m taking up my space completely.

So parenting is like… I mean, it just puts spotlights on that 50% line, who’s taking up their space, and who’s not. Are you going over into their space, and what’s your responsibility, what’s their responsibility? And all of those things… I mean, for me, that’s highlighted all the time. It has been my greatest spiritual education, because I want to be a stable home base for them to come back to. I want to model self-compassion so that they can be loving to themselves so they can love somebody else.

So it’s highlighted all of the areas where it’s not working for me! (Laughs) Where I’m not doing my job, or my work on my inner world. I don’t know if that’s clear.

Can you remind me their ages again?

Vivian is 11, and Gus is 14.

So definitely getting into that age of like… What do I let them do and learn on their own? How much do I need to protect them?

Sure.

Yeah. I don’t understand from first-hand experience as a parent yet, but that does seem like a tricky age where they’re definitely becoming their own person, but they still need a bit of guidance, right.

And just mothering does that to you, where you’re aware of that from a… I can only speak from my experience, and I had both of mine in my body, so I’m their birth mother. I have a… Biological connection to them, that… I joke in my solo piece that motherhood is just a series of deaths, where you’re just… (Laughs)

Wait yeah, how…? (Laughs)

Where you’re just cutting ties and letting them go, like over and over. (Laughs) In little ways, like however it is! Even when they’re infants, and you’re breastfeeding, or something. And they decide to walk. And so you can’t have a boob in your mouth and walk around. There comes a time when you have to go, “Okay, we’re done with that. We’re done with that. That’s over. That connection is cut and done. And it’s time for you now to stand up on your legs, walk around the room, eat solid food.” Right?

So it’s just a series of saying, “Okay, that connection is done… I’ve gotta let you individuate, and step away from me.” It’s a series of killings!

(Laughs) Damn!!

(Laughs) Right!? It’s the dark comedy of mothering.

Wow. I have never heard it phrased like that. It’s great though.

Well, I mean, nobody tells you that. It starts from the beginning! I remember part of me wanting them to stay in the womb, in the body, because I can control the temperature in there, I control the food that’s going in there, I control what they’re listening to. I got complete control! My husband mentioned that there’s this fish, when they’re swimming with their babies, if a predator comes, the mama fish—or the daddy fish, I don’t know—takes the fish into its mouth! Just like holds them in there, and then when it’s safe, he’s like blaahhhhh—he lets them out. They swim around.

And I remember having that feeling of like… Oh I kinda want to just keep them in there, because I know everything is safe and okay in there. But then, they have to be born! That’s what happens! It’s a series of deaths and rebirths. But there’s a severing of that connection to you—biologically, physically, anatomically! They come out! And then they’re separate from you.

Yeah! Holy shit! (Laughs) That’s crazy! What can you remember about your own experience as a child, like with your own mother? Do you remember any of those like, separation things? Can you just talk about your own relationship with your mom?

Yes… Yes. And I would say, this is my biggest… I don’t know if it’s this way for everybody, but my greatest and my greatest wound is with my mother. And… My mom is a beautiful person, a giving person, and was not emotionally available. And was going through some tough shit when I was born. So I don’t know if I’m making it up, but I have memories of being alone at infant stage. I mean, I’ve heard countless other people say similar things, who have similar experiences… And that was a different time, in the 1900’s. (Laughs) For parents and kids.

So I was born in the mid-70’s… I didn’t feel heard, or seen. I didn’t feel encouraged. I didn’t feel connected, and those are all things I’m hyper vigilant to a fault with my own kids, cause it’s so important to me that they feel that. And then the pendulum can swing too far, because I have that specific wound, I can go way too far with my own kids, right?

So that’s been… A greatest challenge and the greatest gift. Becoming a parent really gave me insight into my own childhood and the parenting that I received. And the… Defects, of their parenting, you know? And so hopefully I will improve upon that with my own kids. I mean, that’s the hope! At the same time, we’re all just freakin’ trying to figure this thing out! Like nobody knows what the fuck they’re doing! Like nobody!

(Laughs) Yeah!

I mean even the wisest person, there are times when they’re like, “I don’t know. I mean maybe? I think it’s this?” Right? We don’t fucking know! (Laughs) I mean there’s that, too, right?

Something that I’ve learned recently, Juliana, that has just come with getting older, that’s related to this. And I mean like recent, recent, recent… Is that I want to invite more play into everything I’m doing. That… And it can be serious play. I used to say that to my acting students. I’d be like “We’re gonna play FOR REAL. Like this is gonna be some SERIOUS play.” (Laughs) Right? Cause it’s all make-believe.

We’re all just making it up, but we’re gonna be serious about doing it. We’re gonna be committed to doing it. It can be serious play sometimes, and sometimes it can be silly play, whatever. But I want to invite more and more play, because that… A place of openness. There’s more freedom there. That’s where you find freedom. If you, you know… It’s like that Leonard Cohen quote, “There’s a crack in everything—that’s how the light gets in.” You gotta have some space! It’s gotta crack open a little bit, so the light can get in there.

I want to have play because play does crack things open. It invites in freedom. It invites in possibility. Curiosity. I want… And also, the older you get, you know, you’ve heard people say, the less fucks you have to give, right? You do get to a point where you’re like, “Really? Am I gonna worry about my waistline? Seriously? Am I gonna obsess about that? That’s not how I want to spend my time.” Not that that’s not a struggle, but…

Going back to my childhood, there wasn’t a lot of play. There wasn’t a lot of room for play—not for me, like by myself. My mother was not a player. There just wasn’t time, there wasn’t space. We were trying to survive life, and she was a single mother for the first ten years of my life. So there was a lot of work, and worry. So play is what I’m after at this point. Seems really powerful.

Yeah. What’s your go-to playtime activity? (Laughs)

Okay, so right now, most recently. I don’t remember how this came to me, it was out of some sort of… I have a therapist, who’s a fantastic therapist–who’s a Jungian therapist. I’m a big Jungian reader and believer in Carl Jung’s work, which is all related to image, imagination, metaphor, archetypes… We could talk about that for hours!

But I don’t remember what prompt she gave me, or something, or if I had a dream about it, or if it was in a meditation, or something… I had this image of 1970’s in bell-bottoms, halter top or something. The sun was shining, and there was some like Shuggie Otis, or like some *sings silly bass line*. Something playing, that’s like joyful, jive, walkin’ down the street, montage in the city kind of thing! And so I like to put on that music, and embody that bell-bottom, halter top, walking and strutting in the sunshine part of me, and it immediately brings in play!

If I’m just like jiving to some really good 1970’s groove… I mean, that immediately brings in play. Dancing, moving, dancing in a silly way. Dancing with my kids, or trying to embarrass my kids in the grocery store—that’s something I LOVE doing. (Laughs)

Oh… I love that.

They’re always like, “MOM.” Their thing lately is “Mom, you are talking SO loudly.” (Laughs) I’m like “Nobody’s listening to me! Nobody cares.” So dancing, music… Pretending! I love words, I love making words funny, or you know, making some analogy that makes my husband laugh. If I can make my husband laugh, I mean I feel like I’ve won. That’s a high bar! It makes me so happy, I feel such a sense of accomplishment if I’m able to make him laugh with some sort of word play.

And I like drawing. Things like… If it’s some sort of alone play, I really love drawing, or… Just messing around with collage, or gluing stuff together, that nobody’s gonna see. Ever.

Yeah. (Laughs)

And I love riding a bike. I love riding a bike! Speaking of Bicycle Face. And I have this, as a reminder. It’s just a postcard, but I think it’s an actual photo, from the 1800’s, of a woman on a bike. (Laughs)

Amazing. Is she holding… What is she holding?

I think she’s holding a glass of wine, or some cordial, or something.

That’s great. It sounds like play is a state of being, than like a specific thing. Am I hearing that correctly?

Yeah, but I’m into finding other specific things that bring that on! I don’t know what that’s gonna be in the second half of my life, you know?

Yeah. That’s great. Wow. Hmm… Let me see. We’ve covered most of my questions! Okay yeah, how do you tend to recharge. So you work with people, and you have your own kids. How do you maintain your 50% line, and what do you do for self-care and recharge?

That’s a big one. And that’s a constant negotiation with time, and… You know what, I feel like I am in the act of figuring that out, weekly, daily. Lately, it has been about slowing down, for me, and allowing. Allowing things to be slower or allowing things to not be a hustle. Really trying to be cognizant of my expectations of anything I’m setting out to do, or the day… I mean, a basic example is, my daughter just got a new bed, it’s like a loft bed kind of thing in her room. And we needed to go through her clothes and her toys, and take things out to donate, get rid of some stuff, clean out some clutter, but also organize some things. I want her room to be very comfortable, I want it to be a place that she feels is her own, and expresses her, and all those things. So that’s important, and so… I was like, at first “Okay, what’s the fastest way I can do this?” (Laughs) Right? Cause I wanted to get THAT done, and these other five hundred things I want to do for my work. And la la la la.

And I was thinking, at the onset, I was like, “We’re gonna do it in one day! It’s gonna be Wednesday, we’re gonna take it care of it all, and get it all done!” And so we started the thing, and I was like, “Oh no… This is not… There’s no way we can do this in one day.” And so I was able to… In the past, I would have been pushing us and driving us to finish it in a short period of time. I was like, “Okay, you know what? We’re gonna do this until 2 o’clock. And then at 2 o’clock, we’re gonna both take a break. And I am gonna go be by myself for a few minutes in my office.

So in my office, I can lie down, I can read, I can stare out the window, you know, whatever I want to do. Oftentimes, I lay on my back with my feet up the wall—you know that yoga position? It’s a regulating position, I highly recommend it. But I really allowed myself to go, no, I am booking in time to step away and to not be on my phone, not to listen to anything, not to read anything, not to… You know, do anything but just sit there or lay there.

And so I find that I have to schedule that in. And then I have to be okay with scheduling that in. Meaning I have to make it a priority, or it won’t happen.

Yeah.

But that’s been a struggle. That’s been a definite struggle for me, to not feel like I need to be doing something all of the time. Yeah. I mean, I recharge by… I love sleeping! I love nice bedding, and pillows. I love… (Laughs) I love reading. And I love watching television. I love watching television. I watch a lot of television. I went through a stage where I really loved watching re-runs of the West Wing. There was nothing in there that was like, highly traumatic or traumatizing to watch, AND it was coupled with some political intrigue and interest, with some humor. And I was like, “Yeah, that’s my jam, man! That’s my jam. Let me watch that before I go to bed, for an hour.” Yeah.

Nice!

I have to alone-time recharge. I have to alone-time recharge. I have to… I’m very sound-sensitive. I’m sensorily sensitive. I consider myself an HSP—a highly sensitive person. So I have to turn things off. I have to do things like, if we’re in the car, I might be like, “Hey kids, we’re not listening to any music right now for this ten minutes. We’re just gonna drive.” Just little things along the way.

And Leslie Huddart’s work has really helped me in that I’ve… Throughout the day I just drop into my pelvis. I just stop and go, oh let me just drop in there for a moment. And then, okay. I mean, just for a moment, doing that, touching on presence like that is really helpful.

Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you’re doing that in front of your kids, which seems really important too. Like, kinda showing them, not only that you need this, but like, it’s also an option… Hopefully they’ll adopt similar things. Has that always been like, Mom needs some alone time, it’s just how it is. Were they ever questioning, or resistant to that? Or has it just always been like that?

I feel like that… Usually the way I would operate, I would just go go go, push push push, work, do house stuff, do family stuff until I got to complete overwhelm, and I had a migraine. And my body was like, “Nope, we’re gonna take you down for a couple of days.” Right? Like that’s how I used to do it. And so I don’t have migraines anymore. I’ve gotten rid of those completely. And it’s because of the subtle body work that I’ve done. But it’s also because I go, “Nope, I need to step away.” Or “I need to take a few minutes.”

So no, it has not always been like that. It is… It does feel like, even now, it can kind of be a retraining of my kids and my partner too, because all three of them are very talky, and very smart, and very bright, and want to talk about things, share things with you… All the time! And so it has been where I have to sit down and say, “Hey, I really… My mind kind of turns into scrambled eggs if I keep going. So I have to step away. And that’s just the mom that you have. I’m sorry we can’t listen to that song right now. But we’ve gotta put in some easy jazz, or some Shuggie Otis, or something like that, for this time. And then you can play me that song another time.” Or whatever it is. So it’s… I’m constantly working on it. I’m still working on it now.

Yeah. All right, just a couple more questions. How do define success?

I think success to me is… The first word that comes to me is freedom. Maybe opportunity and possibility and freedom. Options, you know… That seems like great success to me, when you’re in the place of that, embodying those things. And I think, you know, success for me will be, or is being able to love and take care of the people that mean the most to me, how I want to be able to do it, in a way that has integrity and tenderness and care in it.

Yeah.

Yeah!

Yeah, I love that. And you already kinda touched on this, but my last question is what are you looking forward to? You did mention that everything is kinda coming together. You have your solo work, you have your workbook—is there anything else you hadn’t mentioned or anything more you wanted to elaborate on with any of those?

I’m looking forward to what’s next! Like, what’s coming down the pipe? I’m looking forward to like, what my kids are gonna be into! Or what they’re gonna do, or what they’re gonna show up with, and bring to us, bring home… Bring to dinner when we meet them out somewhere, when they’re grown up, or something. I’m looking forward to that. I’m looking forward to… Feeling more and more freedom in my body. Cause I really want that. I’ve seen some older friends that really have that—really have a certain groundedness in who they are, and then also just a freedom of expression that is huge. And I’m looking forward to deepening that for myself.

Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much. I feel like I learned so much!

Oh, that’s awesome. Thank you for saying that. Thank you asking me to do this! Cause this is… I don’t ever do this! I don’t ever talk about my journey, or you know, with anyone, except for myself or my journal. (Laughs)

Yeah, I love it! So inspiring. So many little nuggets. I know you have a website, what is it?

My website is creativeworkwithnatalie.com.

Okay, cool, creativeworkwithnatalie.com. And do you have any other like, social media, or anything else you wanna leave?

Not yet! But it will be around Creative Work With Natalie for sure.

Awesome, well I’ll put a link to that! Thank you so much!

Thank you, thank you!